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StellarMate - best way to connect?

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Just invested in StellarMate after using Astroberry for over a year and pleased to say I can connect remotely from my study in the same 2 ways as before.
Method 1) web browser (Edge) from my desktop using address: stellarmate.local/#/vnc or
Method 2) run kstars installed on my desktop and run a profile with Indi Web Manager ticked, Host: StellarMate and port 7624

Question is what is the best way? I have been using Method 2 for 3 reasons:
1) I found the Pi crashed sometimes with method 1 which I believe was related to viewing fits files when imaging. I have found Method 2 is stable.
2) The screen real estate (twin screens) is bigger with my desktop making it much easier to operate the software.
3) Method 1 isn't as quick in responding to mouse and keyboard inputs and there is a display lag. Feels draggy.

I am minded to carry on using method 2 for my permanent observatory set-up. My only doubt is the internal guider. I am hoping to improve my guiding with StellarMate and time will tell.

With Method 1 whilst there is a display lag due to VNC operating across the LAN, is guiding expected to be more responsive because USB connections from Pi to guide camera and mount are local to Pi. Is my concern that with method 2 there could be a time lag for guiding because the EKOS guide module is running locally on my desktop and communicating across the LAN or is my fear unfounded and I should look elsewhere for the small amount of drift in RA I sometimes get?

In short, for a permanent observatory, is Method 1 or Method 2 preferred?
1 year 2 months ago #89371

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I use Method 2.
Method 2 is more stable, has no mouse or keyboard delay, saves data faster, and allows me to use the wider screen of my PC.
The data is saved on the PC as soon as it is taken, and there is no need to copy the captured images from the Raspberry PI to the PC after taking the picture.

I believe the Internal Guider time lag you are concerned about is of little concern.
The attached image is a schematic diagram of data flow from Device to KStars.
In both Method 1 and Method 2, the transfer time is the same between Devices and Raspberry PI via USB connection.
Between INDI Server and EKOS, data is transferred by INET Socket.
In the case of Method 1, the data transfer time will be as close to zero as possible over a localhost connection.
In the case of Method 2, the data transfer time will be close to zero for an Ethernet connection.

NOTE
Some parts are omitted in the figure.
For more information, please refer to the following pages
docs.indilib.org/protocol/
The following user(s) said Thank You: David Bennett
1 year 2 months ago #89377
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Thanks for answering the very question I asked!

The route from the Raspberry Pi to my remote desktop is entirely cat5 cables (not using wifi) . The Pi connects to a fast wireless access point which has built in WAN connections in the observatory. (I use wireless in the observatory only to connect to a Pi zero web cam for remote visual monitoring of the telescope.) The access point is wired to my Virgin Media Router in my study and my desktop is also wired to this router. The network works fine so I guess INET should be fine. If it turns out that StellarMate is more stable on the Pi I will test both Method 1 and 2 to see if there is a difference in guiding but from what you say, none is expected.

With Astroberry I did some Indi and OS updates to try and fix bugs which may have contributed to problems. With StellarMate I am thinking of a different approach. Just image a spare SD card when a newer version is released. i.e avoid intermediate sudo apt upgrades from repositories. [ .. Some software applications like PixInSight or AstroImageJ have a built in notification and update system but I don't think StellarMate/Astroberry has this? ..] My error. Just found Software Updater on the desktop. So its be patient and wait for a new official image.
Last edit: 1 year 2 months ago by David Bennett. Reason: Found Software Updater
1 year 2 months ago #89385

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I use Method 1, but it's largely because I have worked a lot at sites without electricity. I've never had a laptop with enough battery capacity to stay live throughout an imaging session, but the Pi consumes so much less power that it's easy to piggyback off the battery for the rest of the rig. Now that I've found a home with concrete pads and electrical outlets in a Bortle 5 location...huh, I hadn't really thought about it, but maybe it's time to switch.

Although frankly KStars seems to be flakier on my Mac and Windows laptops than it is on the Pi. I haven't been motivated to fix that because, meh, I just use the Pi. I do really enjoy the faster download times when I have connected directly to the gear with the (much) faster machines, wonder if it would be the same remoting to INDI.
1 year 2 months ago #89395

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Hi

Method 2 is ok on a wired LAN, but not ok if you're operating a telescope in Spain from London.
Of course, YMMV.

Cheers and HTH.
1 year 2 months ago #89401

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That is a thought. Try out Method 2 on a remote site across the internet (assuming routers and firewalls are configured to permit necessary traffic or use VPN). If this is possible then even if response times are too slow it would help to investigate my question about guiding and possible time lag!

I can connect to my rig truly remotely across the Internet using Method 1 which works fine. Because shutters are not motorised and I don't have weather monitoring capability, I have only done this when close to home.
1 year 2 months ago #89408

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I find download times are not an issue with method 2 on my LAN. Because of limited space on Pi I use Microsoft one drive for image capture. If using method 2, I configure Samba on Pi and save to same location. The Internet going down is a risk but as my Internet provider has engineers out mostly during daylight hours, the internet is very reliable for me at night. With method 2 you need to configure windows not to do OS updates during the night and not to go to sleep. It's me that should be asleep!
1 year 2 months ago #89410

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Method 1: all you're doing is monitoring a local session. It doesn't matter where you are. If the connection drops or is slow, the pc or pi gets on with it regardless. Just transfer your images at the end of the session.
Method 2: you're controlling the session. Fiber at both ends notwithstanding, if the connection drops or is slow, guiding for example will fail.

The only way we've got remote across Internet to work reliably is to vnc into a mini pc running both indi AND a client. kstars is a good choice;) I speak from bitter 'phone-calls-at-4am experience; I'm quite often the guy on the ground at the telescope end!

Cheers and good luck
The following user(s) said Thank You: David Bennett
1 year 2 months ago #89411

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Thanks for great feedback and totally get the method 1 advantages and why its the best but I notice you use mini PC's. Is this for reliability reasons? Not tried a mini PC but I would also think you get a better screen resolution and improved Windows PC graphics? I also guess you may have SDD disk drive with plenty of storage? If so that makes Method 1 more attractive for me.

I am sat here with raspberry Pi removed from observatory and it's sat on my desk. I have just etched StellarMate and in the process of moving over from Astroberry. Pi is connected to a monitor and running Kstars. No equipment attached. On a second monitor next to it I am connected to PI via local LAN using my PC and method 1. I have identical views. As I interact with the planetarium software on the PC or Pi there is a small delay on the other devices monitor. Guessing, the delay is about 1/2 second and is marginally longer when interacting using the PC. This is irritating because the remote PC display doesn't pan smoothly but jumps especially when dragging dialog boxes and windows around. Does this also happen with a mini PC? I guess I should be able to answer this one myself by installing on a laptop. Would it be possible to share how you built the mini PC?

I wonder if VNC has to be tuned? Will raise another topic for this.
Last edit: 1 year 2 months ago by David Bennett.
1 year 2 months ago #89417

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David,

I don't have the reference at my fingertips but it's pretty easy to set up the Pi to boot StellarMate from an external USB. This has several advantages. A USB 3.0 SSD is much faster than a microSD card, you can have all the space you want to store images (which also happens pretty fast), and you can remove it and plug it straight into your processing computer instead of having to drag files across the network.

In fact I often just leave the files in place and process them right there on the SSD -- it's that fast. The only challenge is finding a way to mount the ext4 file system. On my Mac it was pretty easy, I'm still struggling to do it for Windows. It's also a pretty inexpensive way to go, you can get a terabyte drive for around a hundred bucks.

OK, one other challenge: Sometimes I disconnect the SSD and then forget where I put it. Or forget to plug it into the Pi and wonder why I can't connect to it (answer: its boot drive is missing, you numbskull Rick!). My SSD is maybe half a centimeter thick and considerably smaller than the Pi -- a little tab of Velcro holds it nicely to the case. I got one with a USB-C connector so it would plug right into the MacBook Pro where I do all my processing, so I have a USB-C --> USB-A adapter on the Pi.

As for connection method reliability, I guess I have to agree that I have seen both Wifi and cabled connections to a laptop die more often than sequencing does on the Pi, and the latter is most often a guiding or focusing fail which is independent of how you connect. Usually if a cabled connection fails it's because the astronomer is clumsy, but "I resolve to be more careful around wires in the dark at 2 AM" is not exactly a robustly-engineered solution. Aviation taught me that human factors should be accommodated where possible, not treated as character flaws to be overcome.
1 year 2 months ago #89420

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And by "much faster" I mean "a qualitatively different computing experience". I still have the occasional lag or wait, but it's night and day vis-a-vis the microSD days.
Last edit: 1 year 2 months ago by Rick Wayne.
1 year 2 months ago #89421

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Good point about using a USB 3 stick. Times when I have run Kstars on Pi I have saved to SD Card and tried to remember to clear out files. In this mode of operation I use Samba and mount /home/astroberry/Documents to X drive on my PC so I can copy and delete files across my LAN. With a portable rig using a memory stick makes more sense.

Just need a clear night here in the UK to test StellarMate.
1 year 2 months ago #89422

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